Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ. If I understand this correctly, the things before the colon were the shadow, but Christ is the embodiment (or substance of what was a shadow). The shadow pointed to Christ. He is the fulfillment of the law. We do not have license to judge on those things thereby. If so, then we are not to judge nor allow ourselves to be judged in our keeping of these lesser commandments, or “shadow of things to come.”
If the greatest commandment is to Love YHWH and the second greatest is to love your neighbor, would everything else be a least commandment? Idolatry a violation of the first, the most egregious trespass of the second was issued the death penalty; murder, adultery and sodomy the epitome of hatred against your fellow man. The King James Bible states, “Thou shall not kill” and we understand given biblical case law and a circumspect view of scripture how to interpret this law as murder. Should we not apply the same skill to understanding the sabbath as well?
I have only found one incident where the death penalty was meted as a punishment for violating the sabbath, and that at its establishment leads me to conclude that this isolated incident was an exception if not a special cause to that individual – it certainly was not the rule though it was then the prescribed punishment. Israel “profaned the sabbath” by engaging in commerce on it, they were captive in Babylon 70 years to satisfy a sabbath debt. Israel was unwilling to carry out the death penalty for a violation of the sabbath, I’m not sure that I would be willing to administer such either, however I would be inclined to keep it.
The religious leaders of Messiah’s day must have been very confused about the sabbath though they did not believe they were. The One who made the sabbath and commanded the sabbath was continually accused by them of violating the sabbath. However He could not have broke the sabbath at anytime. Because the religious leaders were left confused by the sabbath statutes of the Law and Moses perhaps we should pay special attention to the Messiah’s actions and commentary on the sabbath lest we fail as they did.
Yahushua and his disciples plucked grain to eat as they walked thru the fields on the sabbath. They were not gathering nor engaged in commerce, only eating what was already prepared. Is it lawful to pull your ox out of a ditch on the sabbath? Do you have an ox? Can this be applied circumspectly? The Levite profaned the sabbath in the temple and was guiltless. Do some people have to work on the Sabbath? Yes. Do good on the sabbath. Heal on the sabbath. Rescue on the sabbath. Flight on the sabbath. Defend on the sabbath. Fight on the sabbath. Teach on the sabbath. Fellowship on the sabbath… Worship… So I end up where I started, quoting Paul: Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
In Col 1 thru 2:15 we find an exclamation of our liberty in Christ, what is referred to by “therefore.” We are also admonished not to allow our liberty to be used as an occasion for the gratification of the flesh. So we should desire to keep the sabbath and even the least commandments, Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The SDA denomination has turned sabbath keeping into a salvation issue. Do they doom themselves if they per chance are actually keeping the wrong day? Do they gamble their salvation on the correctness of the Popes Gregorian Calendar, believing Friday and Saturday are also the Creators Sabbath? Babylonian Talmudic Judaism and Messianic Christians also keep the Saturday Sabbath. Islam keeps their sabbath on the Gregorian Friday. The Popes claim to have changed the Sabbath to their Gregorian calendar Sunday, so the Roman Catholic Cult and all of her Ecumenical Daughters go along. Three counterfeit Sabbaths, all based on the Anti-Christ’s Gregorian Calendar only prove that Babylon and Rome are the epitome of smorgasbord religion. Freedom of choice, isn’t it wonderful!
I really don’t have a preference as to what day the sabbath should fall. I am so grateful to the Messiah and for Paul’s epistles that I don’t really have a horse in this race. It’s not a salvation issue for me. But I am interested in Biblical Studies, and I am inclined to keep the sabbath because I believe it pleases my Heavenly Father. Oh and there is that part about being great in the kingdom of heaven-it has become obvious to me that I will never achieve greatness in the world nor do I seek it. The kingdom of heaven, that’s where I want to be great. So my object has been to find out only what the scripture gives as a calendar for sabbath observation. Following is the result and my best rendering of the Creators calendar.
| There is a vestige of the Creators Calendar left in the modern day calendar. September, October, November, and December respectively mean 7th-month, 8th-month, 9th-month, &-10th month. Does this mean that the 11th and 12th month followed December (10th month)? According to the bible this is the fact. The Creators New Year begins in the spring! What is a Moon-th: One complete cycle of the moon from which the word month is derived. |
The first day of each moon-th of the Creators Calendar is a New Moon Day. Sighting of the first sliver of the moon cycle signified the coming of the first work day of each new month. The Sabbaths are on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of each moonth. In a thirty day moonth the last day will be a New Moon Day followed by another New Moon Day, the first day of the following moonth. 7 of 19 years had a 13th moon cycle called “Second Adar“, this kept the Creators Calendar Seasonally Correct. |
The conversation continues in the comments below,
very enlightening.
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I heard a brother on his youtube channel derogatorily say that I “push the lunar sabbath”. He obviously did not read this article or ever listen to me on the topic!
Yes. I do believe that God gave the Hebrew nation a lunar calendar in the Exodus by which they kept the Sabbath, and history reveals that the Jewish people switched to the Roman Saturday Sabbath somewhere between the 4th and 12 centuries. I personally don’t believe that the New Testament Church is required to keep any of the Hebrew Sabbath Statutes or Laws. Christians are not compelled nor prohibited from meeting or resting on any particular day whatsoever. I believe the New Testament is quite clear on the matter.
This article is only the result of my biblical studies and not a call for anyone to become a Hebrew sabbath keeper of any type, Lunar, Saturday, or even Sunday.
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THIS CHALLENGE FROM ANOTHER CRITIC:
“A final evidence I’ll relay in this discourse: one of the best demonstrations from scripture that the Sabbath cannot be lunar based regards Pentecost. This high day, according to Lev 23:15-16 was to be “from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths…fifty days”. But on a lunar based calendar, because of the new moon days and the extra day 30, the count never ends up being 50 but 52-54.”
This is only the best challenge that I have seen that could be problematic for the Lunar stance.
But easily overcome by simply not counting “new moon days” when applying the rule.
The cyclical proponents have many more hurdles to overcome, chief of which is to explain the historical fact of the “second adar” that was implemented because of the command, “this shall be the beginning of months” which required the additional month 7 of 19 years to begin the new year on the commanded new moon. If you could erase that history your problem would go away. Add to that the several other problems outlined above, and you will find your preference untenable.
Stop following the shadows, Christ is the substance!
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I authored everything in this post. The pdf you refer to is not in this post. if it is not about this post it should not be commented on here.
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Admin. The Israelites left Egypt at the Exodus on the fifteenth day of Abib, which was the first month of the Hebrew year. They left on the 15th of the 1st month.
Two months after that date – or if you like – the second month after that date brings the date to 15th of the 3rd month.
I do not know whether you are insulting every one else’s intelligence, or whether you are insulting your own.
You say the second month after the fifteenth of the first month, is only the fifteenth day of the second month.
But one month after the fifteenth is the fifteenth day of the second month.
So you tell me now what would be ‘the first month after the 15th of the 1st month’ . Would that not be the the 15th of the 2nd month?
Equally one month after the 15th Abib, when the Israelites left Egypt, would be the 15th day of the 2nd month.
That being so, how can two months after the Israelites left Egypt be the same day as one month after Israelites left Egypt.
What is your agenda here?
[ Draft copy taken to share if needed. ]
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In my book, “the second month” is after and always follows “the first month” in the same way February follows January. Apparently you believe the text says something else.
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Three comments of mine ‘NOT MODERATED’ on this website since 11th January, 2019.
It looks like I have nothing more to say on this site, even if I say it.
First Amendment Radio, contrary to its name, it appears, is heavily into censorship, and suppression of bright ideas and probing thought.
I sat up till midnight doing that reply to Tom.
But on a website like First Amendment Radio, it is just throwing pearls before swine, like proving from the bible to a Seventh Day Adventist website, ‘The Unhived Mind’, that Jesus Christ is returning to this earth to rule the world. They, SDA’s, just delete it even though multiple scriptures are quoted as absolute proof. They cannot be refuted from their comfort zone. They over-ride the bible. Same here.
Why not ‘moderate’ my reply to Tom, so that Tom or someone can refute it – if they can – or maybe get something from it.
Otherwise, this will be the fourth comment ‘unmoderated’, and I’ll be gone to make the administration happy.
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Sorry I dont have time to keep up with all of this immediatly. First Amendment Radio is not about providing a forum for everyone to exercise their First Amendment rights. You already have that – you can start your own blog, make your own videos, publish your own books etc. etc. First Amendment Radio is about carrying on the Protestant First Amendment rights signaled by Martin Luther when he posted his 95 thesis to the church door in challenge and defiance to the Antichrist over 500 years ago. That is the First Amendment Radio mission.
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Peter,
As a rule, I don’t comment on anything Paul [the apostle?] scribed, because as Peter [ the Apostle ] said “Paul is hard to understand” [I’m slight-paraphrasing Peter the Apostle here…] ;
And I personally just can’t comprehend the Pauline doctrine, neither in whole nor even in one single on his books.
Also, I find many of your replys insightful and would hate to see ya go
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“Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.”
You missed a word from the biblical text, s/r “or of the sabbath days:”. Also here, “but the body of Christ” s/r “but the body is of Christ.”
I am very confused about this lunar calendar development. During creation week, God’s seventh day of rest was not contingent upon this calculation? Col 2:16-17, I believe is talking about the sabbaths of the feasts (the ordinances), not the seventh-day sabbath.
“Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.” — Exodus 34:21 No verse could I find in this chapter’s context that referred to the counting of a new moon for the seventh day rest.
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This month(H2320) shall be unto you the beginning of months(H2320): it shall be the first month(H2320) of the year to you. (Exo 12:2)
H2320
חֹדֶשׁ
chôdesh
kho’-desh
From H2318; the new moon; by implication a month: – month (-ly), new moon.
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Nicklas. I have not read the other 65 replies yet. This is interesting but still new to me.
These are the points I have a problem with. Firstly that you have 2 new moons at times, one at the end of the month and one to start the month. Are they both the 1st of the month???
Secondly that the 1st day of the month is a working day. Followed by five more working days is six work days work by the 6th. The 7th day then becomes the Sabbath. This article has the 8th as the sabbath following seven working days.
Rosh Hoshanah (Trumpets) is the 1st day of Tishri. This cannot be a working day but I accept it can be on a working day as an annual sabbath which is not necessarily a 7th day weekly sabbath. I have to ponder this.
It seems you are saying the 1st is a sabbath, then 4 x 7 = 28 days, brings you to the 29th, then new moon one, the 30th a sabbath. Then new moon two with sliver, the 1st day of the month, but a working day, followed by six more working days (7 now), then the sabbath on the 8th of each month.
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there is no sabbath day but the sabbath rest which is the Holy Ghost rest which is Yashua himself if you have entered into relationship with Yashua then you have entered into Gods rest. Every day Any Day Forever = Sabbath Rest.
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Is this scriptural?
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Well put! We run into difficulties when we try to force Christianity and the New Covenant into self-chosen parts of the Old Covenant. Romans 7:1-7 is SPECIFIC that even the Ten Commandments were part of the Law we are to die to as Christians. We follow Christ’s law (I Corinthians 9:19-21.) He had many laws for us that are NOT FOUND in the Old Covenant. Hebrews 8:13 says the Old Covenant is OBSOLETE. He who has an ear to hear, let him hear.
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I would never say that the Law or the Old Covenant were obsolete. I would say that the Spirit of the Law over rides the Letter of the Law, Jesus clearly demonstrated this. Jesus even thereby raised the standard, “you have heard it said” about murder and adultery, the Law said do not commit the act, Jesus said do not even entertain the thought or you are guilty. But we know that we are all guilty, that’s why he called all men everywhere to repent. Then walk in liberty, the rule is that you not use liberty as an occasion for the flesh – that’s the judgment we need to make when we ignore the letter of the Law, are we doing it for an occasion to the flesh, if so then it becomes a bondage rather than liberty. Therefore the Law is not nor ever will be Obsolete.
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Except Paul said that it WAS. Hebrews 8:13. “You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over in vain.” Galatians 4;10,11 You’re a scary guy, Nicklas!
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Sometimes I scare myself, LOL
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:10-13 KJV)
Context is important my friend. Here is where it is Not Obsolete… “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts” The Spirit of the law.
Walk in Liberty my friend — remember Paul exclaimed “some men esteem every day alike” that would be me, I walk in liberty.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom 14:5 KJV)
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Niklas use romans chapter 14 to say the every day is the same according to each person point of view, but unfortunatly the chapter is not talking about regular days.
You see if you study jewish traditions you will find that one of many traditions is fasting they do it on a regular basis, and on that subject is paul talking about in Romans chapter 14.
Since the very beginning of that chapter is talking about what you should eat and what not,<>. and the whole chapter is talking about the same subject, he dont change subjects in the middle of the chapter
In the time of the apostles fasting was a very popular costume and most of the jews fast twice a week mainly on the second and fifth day of the week and many other on the fourth and sixth day of the week and that was the delema that paul was addressing in this chapter
Thats why we need to do an indepth study of the whole matter to know of what they are talking about
And niklas when you use (Colossians 2:16-17 )is talking about feast days; the sabbath feast days, and you find them in <> and in <> so this sabbaths are beside the sabbath of the lord that is every seven days,and this chapter of colossians is talking about the sabbaths used in the feast that after the death of our lord are no longer necesary
Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
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The most persuasive arguement for the perpetual 7 day week and against the ‘sabbath based on newmonth’ is, the sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the whale 3 full days and 3 full nights, so the lord was in the tomb 3 full days and three full nights. This can only happen if the passover occured on the 4th of the week and the 1st of the feast of unleavened [the annual sabbath] happened on the 5th of the week.
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Even Jesus could not keep the letter of the sabbath law but as he ascribed to the priests that they were blameless for profaning the sabbath in the temple (mat 12.5) so He was blameless for healing ,traveling, and harvesting on the Sabbath. This Post is about Biblical Study. I actually do believe that the lunar/solar calendar that I find in the bible is the one that God gave Israel in the wilderness. I can find no explicit instruction for a perpetual 7 day cyclical calendar in the scripture anywhere, but I know that many find it by conjecture and are thereby convinced. In the end of all these arguments I care not what day you or anyone else keeps the Sabbath. Jesus was constantly accused of wrong doing as regards the Sabbath specifically! And He demonstrated walking in Liberty, so let us walk in the Liberty where with Christ has set us free, only use not that Liberty as an occasion to the flesh and you will do well. (Gal 5)
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ww. You can’t possibly be right. Jesus was in the grave on the evening of the start of the 15th Abib which WAS the 1st day of unleavened bread. He was there for 3 days and 3 nights fulfilling the sign of the prophet Jonah. But that in no way necessitates His death as the Lamb being on the 4th day of the week. If Dan 9:27 referred to the death of Jesus as the Lamb ending Temple sacrifice, then that was the midst of the week, or 4th day of the week on the 14th Abib (Nisan). This would leave the 15th Abib as the 5th day of the week and not a sabbath as suggested by the article in consideration.
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“This would leave the 15th Abib as the 5th day of the week and not a sabbath”
the 15th is an annual sabbath
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” on the evening of the start of the 15th”
I know evenings have starts, but starts having evenings is a concept of time I am not aware of, you’d have to explain that…
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I think I see where you’re coming from, by the time sundown occured [which started the 15th day] he was already in the ground. Whether it was before or after sundown [14th or 15th], it doesn’t matter, either proves that the 15th was not a weekly sabbath… If you believe [as is written] the sign of Jonah = three full days and three full nights…
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ww. And there was evening and morning, one day. Genesis 1:5
And there was evening and morning, the second day. Genesis 1:8.
The day commences at sunset and 24 hours later ends at sunset, the start of another day, and so on.
That is the Hebrew day.
However the 14th Abib, Passover, is the interchange evening from the end of the 14th to the 15th at sunset. Some erroneously assess the 14th at evening to be at the conclusion of the 13th commencing the 14th. This is not scriptural.
Yom Kippur (Atonement) is kept on the whole of the day of the 10th Tishri. It has a start and end at sunset. Notice it starts on the 9th at evening closing the 9th and commencing the 10th. Leviticus 23:32.
If the 9th at evening was the 8th at evening was the 7th at evening and so on, would be farcical.
Leviticus 23:32 shows the 9th at evening commences the 10th.
Thus Passover is kept on the 14th at Sunset, commencing the 15th by which time the Passover meal is in your ‘belly’. Some do this the night before farcically.
Day one ends at evening commencing day two, obviously. Hope this helps.
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ww. Yes, it was an annual High Sabbath called ‘the sacrifice of the LORD’s Passover’. Exod 12:27 That is what the Israelites were to tell their children when quizzed. Exod 12:26. You shall observe this rite for you and your sons forever. Exod 12:24. Nevertheless, if this was the night part of the 15th Abib occurring on the 5th day of the week, it was still not the regular weekly sabbath which was still due to occur on the 7th day of the week, namely the 17th Abib (Nisan).
According to the article in consideration (Lunar determined Sabbaths), the 15th being Passover, also coincides with the regular weekly sabbath.
Since Jesus had to be in the belly of the earth by sundown at the end of the 14th, because that was the day he was killed for a capital offence, lest the land be cursed. Deut 21:22-23. Paul likened the crucifixion to being hung on a tree in agreeance with this law in Deuteronomy. Acts 5:30 and 10:39.
Since Jesus was entombed by Joseph of Arimathea in a hurry to beat sundown at the end of the 14th Abib to satisfy the Torah (Deut), it can safely be said that three days and three nights later (vice versa – same thing) was the last moment of the 17th. Jesus was off the stake before the High Sabbath 15th Abib commenced. John 19:31.
If the 14th Abib was the 4th day (midst of week or heathen Wednesday) of the seven day week. Then the 17th was the end of the regular weekly sabbath.
Ignoring Dan 9:27 for this purpose and in consideration of the Lunar determined sabbath, then the 17th was the 2nd day of the week (heathenly called Monday).
One way the resurrection was last moment of the Sabbath ending 17th Abib. The other way the resurrection was last moment of the heathen Monday (2nd day of the week). The decision is according to which way your intelligence is guided.
Ferrari Fenton’s translation of the Bible is helpful here. He translates from the Greek in Matthew 28:1 the following: – After the Sabbaths, towards the dawn of the day following the Sabbaths, Mary, the Magdalene, and the other Mary came to examine the tomb.
To defend his translation Fenton footnotes the following: – The Greek original is in the plural, which is retained.
Thus, there were a number of Sabbaths occurring during this feast of Unleavened Bread saga of seven days, reported from the death day prior to, and the day after, when Mary found the EMPTY tomb very early on a heathen Sunday morning the 1st day of the week. Matthew 28:1,6. Luke 24:1,3 (No body was there Sunday A.M.)
These sabbaths were the Passover 15th Abib and the regular weekly sabbath on the 17th Abib. The intervening day was the 16th Abib (heathen Friday 6th day of the week). The 7th day of Unleavened Bread High Sabbath of the 21st Abib was yet to occur on a heathen Wednesday 4th day of the week.
In total Jesus spent three nights and three days in the belly of the earth, these days being the totality of the 15th, 16th and 17th Abib (Nisan). Two of these days were sabbaths, the High Sabbath 15th, . . . for that (one – not ‘those’) sabbath was an High Day John 19:31, and the regular weekly sabbath the 17th. One sabbath a High day, the other sabbath not a High Day. These two days were sabbath days, occurring on the 5th and 7th days of that week.
My study of the scriptures, supports the seven day week, non-lunar determined, sabbath day cycle. I also support the annual sabbaths of Leviticus chapter 23.
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ww. I beg your pardon. Upon rereading, I realize we are saying the same thing. We concur. What I missed is that you were saying the 5th day of the week was an annual sabbath feast of Unleavened Bread. I was reading you as speaking about the seventh day sabbath. I was mistaken – you were correctly talking about the 15th Abib being an annual sabbath which can be on the fifth day of the week as you quite correctly said.
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Christ died on Passover which is the 14th day of the 1st month per Lev 23. There are three kinds of days in the Bible: Work days, Sabbaths and New moon days. All have different rules. We cannot ignore new moon days just because they are not on the Roman calendar. Instead we should wonder why they are not on the Roman calendar and at least look at why they are in the Bible.
Romes calendar is based on the pagan Zodiac and sun worship and so has a series of endless solar weeks. In a roman church, the pews face EAST to worship the rising sun.
Trying to find Gods Feasts days on the Roman calendar would be like me telling you to come over for coffee and telling you I live in the seventh house on the left as your only directions to find me. Without knowing what street i live on, you will not find me. Romes calendar is the wrong street to find Gods appointed times on.
Because there are signs given in the heavens to know time, the moon phases line up on the nights before Sabbath. Passover always has a full moon because day 14 of every Biblical month has a full moon. Day seven always has the first quarter moon directly overhead at sunset announcing day 15 as Sabbath. Romes months can sometimes have two full moons because its pagan–of man, not God.
Whomever we give authority to, to tell us when to work and when not to work, is our highest authority. My highest authority is not the pope.
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I’m having difficulty finding a projected lunar sabbath/roman calender for 2013 online. Does anyone know of such a link?
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http://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/calendar.html
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Contraiwise [[perpetual-7-days] calendar.
https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=939im2a3ldlphp515fa5468fvo%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Havana
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this works great if you keep in mind that the Sabbaths are on the 8th,15th,22nd and 29th of each moonth.
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Researching this subject matter has been enlightening. While looking at the Bible and what others have practiced I have tried to nail down this issue, for me. Today I started to read Genesis and was intrigued by the creation story about the lights created to “divide the day from the night.” Gen 1:14 Continuing the Bible says, “and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years,” and looking at these words more carefully you can discover that seasons is the same word used in Leviticus 23:2,4 for feasts and the first feast that Father wants us to set-apart is the Sabbath. Quoting the Scripture it says in Lev. 23:2-4 “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say to them, concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts (seasons). Six days shall work be done but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein; it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations,which ye shall proclaim in there seasons.” So according to the creator in His creation the lights in the firmament, the moon for instance, are to used to determine His feasts(seasons) of which He lists the sabbath, Passover and others all in the same chapter in context, Lev 23. So without private interpretation Father has shown me the sabbath on the sabbath. PRAISE HIM
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be at peace & be blessed is what I say (and what I try to live by as well) and I can tell by your comments and answers to the replies here that you are attempting to ‘rightly divide the word’ and ‘be at peace with all (men) so far as it depends upon you’. You’re doing great in both respects so far as I can tell.
My question to you is this:
When you said, ‘
The Hebrews did not keep Roman day names such as Wednesday and Saturday-and they are nowhere mentioned in the New Testament. The “first day of the week” is not the Roman Monday, it is the day following the sabbath and more specifically the 9th day of the first Hebrew moonth. They kept the calendar in the first moonth with passover as I have constructed it here. Even now the Jews still keep passover by this calendar, though they no longer keep the Sabbath by it. They have chosen to use the Popes Gregorian Calendar instead. If it were up to me, I’d chose Saturday too, it would be much more convenient to be in synch with the rest of the world. But my job here is to rightly divide the Word…
……………..Could you please elaborate on why ‘the 9th day of the first Hebrew moonth’ is/could be the ”first day of the week” ? I am just beginning to be taught and lead by the Holy Spirit to follow His calendar as opposed to his(Pope Gregory’s) calendar, and I have much to learn but from what I’ve been observing/feeling? there is something of a miraculous nature, if I may use that term without offending anyone? which I’m beginning to witness. Sorry, but it is too non descript for me to explain in more detail yet, however, I’m excited to be able to turn back the hands of time to ‘in the beginning, YHVH created…’
be at peace & be blessed, Thomas
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Jesus Christ is the sabbath! The sabbath was a day of rest and was a type and shadow of the rest we have in Jesus. The old testament saints worshipped in the physical sense, but Jeus said in the new testament, the true worshippers would worship in spirit and truth.
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first off there is no “new testament” second off why are people so quick to disregard the commandments of YHVH? ” the verses ” let no mantherefore judge you ……” can only implore us to follow all holidays and commands ( as everything spoken to moses was as a command). for this reason, the state you live in has laws right ? Take for example Jaywalking, we all know the judge would love to get you in his court to judge you on jaywalking right ?so how do we avoid being judged ? by following the law that says it is against the law to jaywalk! the only way to avoid a judgement of omission is to be diligent ! For how do we judge someone that is in compliance ?
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Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1Co_11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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There is no “new testament”??? Can you explain that pls?
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James, you are absolutely correct. Hebrews 8:1-13 definitely shows that the Old Covenant, containing all the laws about feasts and priests and Sabbaths and rabbits (and other unclean beasts) has been done away. This is very plain, also, in Hebrews 9:11-15. The Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ. Now that we have HIM, we are no longer under a “tutor.” (Galatians 3:21-25) Christians who truly understand Christ’s New Covenant have “died” to the Law, including the Ten Commandments (Romans 7:1-7). We now are under “the law of Christ,” (I Corinthians 9:19-21). Christ’s law is LOVE, as defined by Matthew 22:37-39; John 14:15; and I Corinthians 13:1-7. Christ gave many commands not found in the Law, such as Matthew 5:31-48 and Luke 14:26,33. He could not do this unless He Himself, who gave the Law in the first place, was about to change the Law and bring in a New Covenant, which came into effect after He died (Hebrews 9:15-17.) Love frees us from many things we could not be free from under the Law.
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AMEN! James Kennedy you told the real truth there. Therefore all these other arguments and calculations and discussions are null and void. Jesus Christ is our Sabbath Rest. Every Day!
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After reading this study, I was kinda bothered by the possibility that this might be true. So I was inclined to check this to out for myself. After some research through the scriptures and doctrines, the evidence actually points to the fact that what nicklas is saying is accurate. Here is a link to to one of the sites that I found in reference to the sabbath: http://www.yahskingdom.com/lunarbasedshabbat.html
This page gave me good biblical detail on this topic.
Personally, just on fact that the gregorian calendar ISN’T the same calendar given by Him as described in Exodus, was enough for me to start looking for the real one.
Be cover under the blood of Christ, and God bless!
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…you want me to believe the God that gave us more than 600 specific commands such as , what foods to eat, not to eat off chipped plates, not to wear clothing with mingled fabrics, left us completely up in the air about when the sabbath should be observed, in a scriptural context?…
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Not true, it is explicit in the scripture that the sabbath fell on the 15th two months in a row – this is impossible with the Vatican or any perpetual seven day cyclical calendar, it cannot happen unless the count starts with every new moon cycle. In addition there is no other way for the High Sabbaths to synchronize with and fall on the regular Sabbath days, and they do, perfectly!
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would like to know where it says that the sabbath fell on the fifteenth two months in a row.
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read the dialogue on the diagrams for the first two months
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Just for discusion if the “JEWS ” are still using the months given to them by YHVH why does
( at least ) one of them have the name of a babylonian god? I am refering to the month of Tammuz ?
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Nicklas. I have now put some time into this currently, and some aspects have been thoroughly covered in past years also and still bear up. I refer to your 10:01 am comment from 5/13/2012 here. You stated ‘the High Sabbaths synchronize perfectly with regular sabbaths on which they fall’ (not verbatim).
With much respect this is not correct and here is why. I am premising this on the same premise upon which you have based your statement. The idea is that the regular weekly sabbaths fall on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of each lunar month. I readily concede that two annual High Sabbaths fall on the 15th of different months being Abib and Tishri. These feasts are the 1st day of Unleavened Bread and the 1st day of Sukkot (booths) respectively.
The next day after the seven days of Sukkot ending 21st Tishri, is the eighth day of Leviticus 23:36 called a solemn assembly that coincides with the 22nd of Tishri and regular weekly sabbath day. This High Sabbath is now three conceded as coinciding perfectly with regular weekly sabbaths. That is where the list ends.
The four High sabbaths remaining are the seventh day of Unleavened Bread occurring on the 21st of Abib – not a regular weekly sabbath based on the set premise. Leviticus 23:6,8.
The next is Pentecost (feast of weeks) which occurs fifty days following a particular sabbath one day before the waving of the first fruits of the harvest. Whatever date that sabbath is, fifty days brings us to the first day of the week – a day after the regular sabbath – not a sabbath based on set premise. (It is not 50 days from a ‘sabbath during Unleavened Bread’ which is not scriptural but an error. See Leviticus 23:10-14.)
The next is Rosh Hashanah (trumpets). This High Sabbath is kept on the 1st Tishri the new month start – not a regular weekly sabbath based on the set premise. Leviticus 23:24.
The next is Yom Kippur (atonement). This High Sabbath is dated the 10th day of the lunar month – not a regular weekly sabbath based on set premise. Leviticus 23:27.
Conclusion: Four out of seven High Sabbaths do not perfectly synchronize or coincide with regular weekly sabbaths. These High Sabbaths occur on the following dates, 21st, 9th/16th/23rd/30th, 1st, and 30th. None of these dates coincide synchronously with the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th lunar month dates based on the set premise.
Further, the manna that fell in the wilderness but not on the sabbath was at the very least later than two new moons following the first Passover in Egypt and exodus. Not in accordance with the two lunar months shown above which concedes only thirty days from Abib 15th. . . . . . on the 15th day of the second month AFTER they had departed from the land of Egypt. EXODUS 16:1. That is 60 days after Passover night. The sixty seventh day was a sabbath which would have been the 22nd of the third month – a regular weekly sabbath. Exodus 16:26-27. This could be coincidence, but this was the first know sabbath following the exodus.
About Pentecost: . . . . seven full weeks shall they be, counting fifty days to the morrow after the Seventh sabbath. Leviticus 23:11,15-16. This count is seven full weeks (of seven days each) from the waving of the first fruits of harvest the day after the sabbath the first fruits had to be kept till. This day counts as 1 day plus (seven times seven days) 49 days, that being fifty days bringing us to the 1st day of the week. The count is from the sabbath preceding this day seven weeks back
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My post for 10/16/2015 at 7:02 PM. Has an accidental error not before noticed.
Delete:- These High Sabbaths occur on the following dates, 21st, 9th/16th/23rd/30th, 1st, and 30th.
Insert:- These High Sabbaths occur on the following dates, 21st, 9th/16th/23rd/30th, 1st, and 10th. Thanks.
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Hi Nicklas and Tom too. Nicklas you have read Exodus 16:1 incorrectly, and so that must be corrected. At 07/23/12 AT 8:30 AM found two comments below in answer to Tom is wrong.
Here is what you thought it said: – ‘ . . . . all the congregation of the people of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin . . . . . on the fifteenth day of the second month . . . . . ‘. Exodus 16:1.
You read it out of context.
Here is what it actually said: – ‘ . . . . all the congregation of the people of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin . . . . . on the fifteenth day of the second month AFTER THEY HAD DEPARTED FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT. Exodus 16:1.
Now they departed the land of Egypt on the fifteenth day of the first month of the year, the first day of Unleavened Bread, which was 15th of Abib. Two months after that date will now be THE FIFTEENTH DAY OF THE THIRD LUNAR MONTH.
Not the second month.
This ought to be made known to Tom, who obviously did not check it out. Or did, then corrected it, and was maybe deleted.
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Pete, your recent comment seems moot.
I see no indication that the events of Exo.16,1 occured on the 7th day of the week. I see several points indicating that it is unlikely that it was, where else in scripture has the Lord ever come down on His day of rest to speak to man? And;
And the Lord said Behold I will… < that would be making a promise on the sabbath, I don't think so. Which ever day of the week it was, was not the 7th.
I do see indication that 16,1 was the 4th day of the week, for He said at even meat and in morning manna, then these happened [5th day of week], then it next talks of the 6th day of the week.
But that doesn't matter to me, my Lord does not make promises on, or quell murmuruous rebelions on His day of rest…
Can you show any other scripture that show the Lord quelling rebellion or making promises on the 7th day?
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hey look! when you click on my name now it takes you to my wordpress page!
I updated calendars there!
one for the gregorian year 2109
one supputating the full 7000 years of creation, enjoy!
and sorry nicklas, I’ll try not to solicit like this ever again, just think it’s cool!
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I think a simpler way of understanding it would be…The book of Genesis gives a testimony of WHEN it was done. The book of Exodus gives us the blueprint on HOW to RECOGNIZE the sabbath for worship.
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Nicklas. My 7:02 comment posted itself before I could finish the post of 10/16/2015.
Overlapping: – The count is from the sabbath preceding this day seven weeks back. I therefore find that the week exists as a seven day continuous cycle independent and irrespective of any influence of the lunar monthly cycle. Seven weeks crosses over the lunar monthly interchange. Yes, seven weeks and one day does make fifty days, and that is scriptural as quoted above. If on premise the 29th is a sabbath, and the 8th of the next month is a sabbath. The total days inclusive of these two sabbaths would be ten days. Eliminating the earlier sabbath leaves a nine day week. This week would have to cross from one month to the next as seven weeks are involved. This results in a 52 day count for seven weeks plus one day on false premise. Cannot get out of it, there can only be fifty days according to the scriptural bible quote above. Leviticus 23:15-16.
The Jesuits have introduced this Lunar cycle sabbath to obfuscate the true sabbath.
Not the other way round. The Gregorian calendar does obfuscate the lunar annual High sabbaths, but not the seven day weekly cycle.
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I guess you dont like comments that refute your agenda, the bible verses are clear work 6 days and rest one. The moon cycle is NEVER MENTIONED IN VERSES THAT GIVE US DIRECTION CONCERNING THE SABBATH!
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My agenda is biblical studies, you can refute that all you want. I don’t understand exactly what your point is. Are you saying that God did not give the children of Israel a calendar in the wilderness? Or that months had nothing to do with the moon? Or that even the children of Israel followed the Roman calendar? My agenda is this, I studied the Bible and this is what I found, I don’t really care what anybody does with it. That is up to them.
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No hard feelings but I do study the bible as well and have read it from cover to cover at least four times, not that that makes me an expert as I am still gaining knowledge . my point is I made several posts trying to show why I believe your presumtions concerning the moon and the sabbath are incorrect, and they were deleted. None of us has all the information on our own , much of the truth I have has been revealed through agreeable and adversarial discusions. This thread is the first time I have experienced someone saying the sabbath is or should be related to the cycles of the moon.This idea is new to me…
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Again, I don’t understand exactly what your point is – your over lengthy posts just kinda ramble on. Are you saying that God did not give the children of Israel a calendar in the wilderness? Or that months had nothing to do with the moon? Or that even the children of Israel followed the Roman calendar? You accuse me of having a presumption, again I studied the Bible and this is what I found, do with it what you will. You keep repeating “work 6 days, rest the 7th” but that does not exclude the calendar of the Exodus, neither does it command a perpetual cycle, nowhere in the scripture is a perpetual 7 day cycle commanded, IT must be presumed, however the Calendar Commanded in the Exodus does disallow a perpetual 7 day cycle. I am not trying to lay a burden on anyone, reread my article from the beginning to verify this…
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Poor Jody. A comment of yours was deleted. And I am sure you did not cuss and curse.
I would like to point out that this is on First Amendment Radio. The First Amendment champions free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom to discuss politics and religion free of inhibition. But do they practise what they preach.
To delete your possibly very discerning and worthwhile comment, is not very sporting, and is totally contrary to the spirit and purpose of this First Amendment Radio championing website.
Also I would very much have been interested in reading what you had to say. But I am now aware that I have been robbed of that opportunity.
‘Iron sharpens iron and one man sharpens another’. Proverbs 27:17.
‘He who speaks first seems right, till another comes and examines him’. Proverbs 18:17.
I would very much have appreciated your considered opinion, but have been prohibited from such.
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Lol everyone doesnt like their agendas broken down.. give the man a break..lol But i agree.. the 7th day weekly sabbath of the bible is irrefutable. At least he is acknowledging that there is a sabbath that is a part of the decalogue and is important to keep only with Jesus intercessory help as our High Priest. He is tinks the moon is a better way of tracking sabbath time but i dont see it either.
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Right on, Rey!
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so, why wouldn’t thte sabbath be on the first day of the lunar month as well?
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because the first day of the Biblical lunar Moonth is ALWAYS a New Moon Day
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So i take it that we go by the the moon and not the seventh day each week? That means it is never the same from week to week as far as saturday is concerned? So it can fall on other days? How can one be correct when they are not a moon watcher? And how can we go by the moon count when the moon wasnt created until the 4th day of creation week? The sabbath was instituted in Eden along with marriage. The feast days came after as a shadow of of things to come, the body being Christ. My point being that lunar dates related to feast days and sabbaths pertaining to them, apart from the seventh day sabbath of the Yehovah in Eden. The feast days had sabbaths attached to them that fell on different days of the week. At times these sabbaths fell on the seventh day sabbath given in Eden which was called a High Sabbath.
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Yes the 7th day of each week is the sabbath not according to the Vatican Calendar but according to the Calendar that the Creator gave the children of Israel in the Exodus. No the Sabbath Regulation was not instituted in Eden, it was not COMMANDED until the Exodus. Yes High Sabbaths can fall on any day of the Vatican Calendar week, but they always fall on the Seventh day of the Creators Calendar week, that is why they are called “High Sabbaths” 🙂
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So where can i find a Creator’s calender? Also the sabbath was the made for man in Eden before sin entered…Adam and Eve definately taught this wonderful gift of rest from God to their children and grandchildren…Of course it was forgotten by the rebellious children inspired by Satan who has always wanted people to forget because it has always been a sign between Yehovah amd His people. It was reinforced from Sinai again because the children of Isreal forgot it along through generations of Egyptian bondage. Read how they learned many ungodly practices from the Egyptians. Why do you think the 4th commandment told them to remember the sabbath day? Well, because they forgot it! Let us suggest that the sabbath was not commanded until Exodus. Ok, then the other 9 commandments were not commanded either. Are you suggesting that it was ok to covet or kill or worship other gods? May it never be. All 10 commandments were binding before Exodus in order for sin to be imputed because their is no sin where their is no law. 5:13 Romans. And clearly all sinned and needed a savior from the garden to exodus and thereafter. The sabbath started in the garden and the faithful always kept it. It was common knowledge lived out by faith in God’s gift to mankind.
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Rey, where does the BIBLE say that anyone but GOD rested on the seventh day or any day thereafter, until Exodus? It seems you are stating opinion and assumption here. The thief on the cross importuned Jesus to “remember me” in Luke 23:42. Was that because Jesus had forgotten him? Obviously, you are assuming something from the word, “remember” which is not necessarily there. Oh, what a whole host of doctrines and false ideas have been fabricated out of a broken thread! That is how all denominations got started.
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Nicklas. The 7 days of Unleavened Bread occur from 15th to 22nd of Abib. The 15th is a high annual sabbath, and the 22nd is also. Exodus 12:16. If the 15th is a high annual sabbath corresponding to a 7th day sabbath, then the 22nd, also a high annual sabbath or feastday, is not. This is a seven day period that can only contain one weekly 7th day sabbath. Do you agree?
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Nicklas. Sorry, the 7th day of Unleavened Bread is the 21st (not the 22nd). 15 plus 7 brings us to the 22nd which would be a weekly sabbath. But it does not coincide with the annual feast high day of the 21st Abib – the seventh day of Unleavened bread. Does It?
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“they kept it from sabbath to sabbath, 15-22 is 8 days inclusive.”
I believe that’s an error Nicklas, for I read;
{Exo 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, ye shall eat unleavened bread, till the one and twentieth day of the month at evening.} <<< that means the end of the 14th [start of 15th] till the end of the 21st, and that is 7 days inclusive
{Exo 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread;}
Exo 12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses:
Exo 13:6 Seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
Exo 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to the LORD, seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
{Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is a holy convocation,} <<< note; NOT the 8th inclusive day
Num 28:17 And on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
2Ch 30:21 And the children of Israel that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days
Ezr 6:22 And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days
Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
the 1st day [15th] is an annual sabbath and the last day [21st] is an annual sabbath
NOT "8 days inclusive"
also, if it were 8 days inclusive [first and last being weekly sabbaths], how would you know which one to choose for to start the pentecost count?
note: this is in reply to nicklas's post farther down but there is no reply function there so had to reply to this one.
"Nicklas Arthur on 10/16/2015 at 9:06 am said:
they kept it from sabbath to sabbath, 15-22 is 8 days inclusive."
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tom. ” Exodus 13:6. Seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread, . . . . ”
Thanks for supporting my correction 15th – 21st inclusive. I answered an earlier post of yours opposing the count to Pentecost of 50 days FROM the regular weekly sabbath during the seven days of Unleavened Bread.
Exodus 13:6 stated above by you commands unleavened bread to be eaten each of the seven days of unleavened bread, I think you will agree.
Let’s suppose the regular weekly sabbath is the 3rd of these seven days. Then the 1st day ( heathen Sunday) would be the 4th day of these seven days.
Do you know that IF this regular weekly sabbath – the 3rd day of the seven days, is the start of the count of 50 to Pentecost (feast of weeks), then you must break this command of God’s for the first 4 of these days of Unleavened Bread including the Sunday (count of 1) in accordance with God’s other command found in Leviticus 23:14, “And you shall eat neither bread nor grain, parched or fresh, until this same day (of Leviticus 23:11 – the 4th day of week Sunday), until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.” Does this conflict with Exodus 13:6 above? No it does not!
So what goes on here? Fact is the count of 50 to Pentecost does not start from the regular weekly sabbath during the seven days of Unleavened bread. God is not a God of conflict. I hope you find this helpful. Pentecost counts from a harvest first fruits weekly sabbath occasion, whenever that is. Leviticus 23:10. Beware of false prophets. Peter.
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Tom.
You provided a link for your calendar. It was uneventful, throwing up a message that said: –
“Events from one or more calendars could not be shown here, because you do not have permission to view them.”
I wish to point out that I figured the manna from the skies fell on days, beginning at evening, for days 61 to 66 following 15th Abib Passover, the day the Israelites departed From Pharaoh’s Egyptian captivity. Not 30 days Later on the 15th of the second month depicted on the Lunar calendar above. The 67th day after the departure from Pharaoh was proclaimed by Moses the weekly sabbath.
15 days closed out Abib, 30 days for the second month, 15 days into the 3rd month, then 6 days of the 3rd month manna fell, then the sabbath the 67th day. This brings us to the 22nd day of the 3rd month was a weekly sabbath day. This was the ‘making known’ of the sabbath day by Moses. It does not follow from this that the Passover 15th Abib that year was a sabbath. My posts previous to this provide the biblical verses necessary to uphold this.
This Lunar calendar article assumes Passover the 15th Abib was a sabbath. This lunar calendar article presumes, mistakenly, that the manna established the validity of the sabbath on the 15th of the 2nd month. But the manna started falling two months after the 15th Abib proven by Exodus 16:1 which was 60 days later. Then commenced the 6 days of manna establishing the 7th day sabbath once and for all.
Examining Exodus 16:1 to find the elusive error that led to this 2nd month ‘manna’
error. “They set out from Elim, . . . . , on the 15th day of the second month AFTER they had departed from the land of Egypt.” Exodus 16:1.
Did everyone notice that word “AFTER”. They came to the wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the 3rd month therefore.
The error has been exposed. The error has been corrected, and we have rightly divided the word of truth.
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The point I am making here is that what the Denominations say is different from what the Bible says – My objective is Biblical Studies and rightly dividing the Word. What anyone does or does not do with that is between them and the Almighty… happy cloud watching 🙂
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Hiya Nicklas,
Using your pdf calendar found on this page above, I counted 53 days to the popish day may29th which you have labeled “number 50 days”.
Could you elaborate on that please?
I actually use the fullmoon as the start of the moonth and the 7day cycle from creation, and this 53 day problem is one of the main reasons. But I think that only Emmanuel knew which calendar was his fathers, so I would argue it.
Thank you for your service,
tom
=-==
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The pdf is not authored by me. I don’t know what the 53 day problem is, but if you start the moon cycle in the middle, you have a bigger problem. Do you also start the day in the middle? And how do you start a seven day cycle with creation when the sabbath was not even commanded nor was the calendar given until the Exodus?
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the 53 day problem is. Does not the scripture say that the feast of weeks shall be 7 sabbaths plus one day after the sabbath that falls during the feast of unleavened bread? and does it not say that it is 50 days? this can only happen with a 7 day cycle. with a moon cycle sabbath, the feast of weeks is always 52 or 53 or 54 days after the sabbath during the feast of unleavened bread. Please focus on this, it seems proof that the lunar calendar is not scriptural
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does it say 50? or count 7 Sabbaths? would this not allow the lunar Sabbath? Also consider the fact that the only way High Sabbaths actually fall on a Sabbath is using the lunar month.
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see here where it says both in the same verse; (Lev 23:16) Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and please note that 3 times in the new testament that the word Pentecost [from the greek word for fifty days] is used. whereas with the lunar calendar it will never occur on the 50th day. Also, consider the fact that on an average of once every seven years the high sabbaths will fall on the weekly sabbath when using the perpetual 7 day week.
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1. the way it is worded is the 50 count starts the day after 7 Sabbaths are complete, it does not end there. (remains debatable/inconclusive)
2. one in seven, not very convincing… OR 7 in 7, that’s what I call conclusive.
I have weighed all of the arguments and the preponderance leads me to accept that the Vatican’s Gregorian Calendar is not God’s Calendar, rather His Months are regulated by the moon as described in the scripture. We will see when He returns, until then the debate will rage.
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Look at all of the promoters on lunar sabbath, all I have found are pompous, as if there very incomes depends on your/my conversion. Except you Nick, I don’t think you are quite yet convicted, and I pray you continue to seek the truth..
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Your comment is worthy , and hopefully providential, I have noticed the same among the Lunar keepers. Romans 12:21
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Thanks Scott, another good arguement is that noah was way before the exodus, and yet he knew [or was suppose to know] the difference between clean and unclean animals [which wasn’t delineated untill the exodus], so also, wasn’t he aware of the sabbath? [ei. hadn’t it already been established?] and all the other judgements, statutes and commandments [such as the sabbath]? But most important [as Georgegordon says] “when I get to my judgement and the lord tells me I am wrong, all’s I can do is plead that I tryed the best I could” [paraphrase]. Also, 40 years ago in Longmont Colorado, a tropical fish store owner hung a sign every wednesday saying “closed for sabbath”… Imagine if that guy is right, how lonely he will be in heaven if it is truly important to be correct…I love you nicklas, you are truly the least pompous broadcasting this day…
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tom. I know what you’re on about and where you are coming from. I used to have the same problem. That is until I searched diligently for who said the count starts ‘from a sabbath that falls during the days of Unleavened Bread’. That is why I can tell you that a false prophet put that idea into your head – because the scriptures do not say that at all. Go on check yourself on that point. Start at Leviticus Chapter 23. You will not find it.
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tom and Nicklas. Is this convincing? Leviticus 23:15. “And you shall count from the morrow [day] after the sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven full weeks shall they be, counting FIFTY days to the morrow [day] after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a cereal offering of new grain to the LORD.”
There are 8 morrows [days] after the sabbath in this count of FIFTY days. That is because the count starts on a Sunday and ends on a Sunday. That is seven weeks of seven days complete, including seven regular weekly sabbaths, plus an extra Sunday thrown in. It all adds up to 50.
The Lunar calendar cannot cope with this enumeration of God’s. Let God be true but every man a liar. All the time remembering that “a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”
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this reply should follow this post;
{Peter on 10/19/2015 at 3:54 pm said:
tom and Nicklas. Is this convincing? Leviticus 23:15. “And you shall}
<<>>
yes, that’s it, lev.23,15 says 7 sabbaths plus one day,
and the next verse lev.23,16 actually says 50 days.
The only way that this can happen in the “luney calendar” is if there are 2 consecutive lunations [moonths] lasting exactly 28 days each. and that doesn’t happen.
Even if as Nicklas postulates above [to-wit I disagree];
“Nicklas Arthur on 07/23/2012 at 9:00 am said:
1. the way it is worded is the 50 count starts the day after 7 Sabbaths are complete, it does not end there. (remains debatable/inconclusive)”
it still begs a 50 day count [tho it start after 7 sabbaths] ending on a “1st day of the week”, which again in the “luney calendar” never happens…
Note: In the “luney calendar” posted at the top of this article;
7 sabbaths and a day = the 9th of the 3rd month, whereas
50 days is the 6th of the 3rd month [which is a 5th of the week, not 1st], and
that which Nicklas postulated in the previous paragraph, well who knows, I’m not sure what he is saying with that…
And this is neither enumerated on the displayed calendar nor explained in the article. Now while Nicklas has mentioned in other replys in this very long page that he ‘got the calendar from another website’, seriously Nicklas, it has been three years and your “words” are still not illuminating, so please draw us a calendar, your own, a whole year, showing;
1 abib
10 abib
passover
1st of unleavened
last of unleavened
feast of weeks
pentecost
trumpets
atonement
1st of tents
last of tents
then show the error in these 2 “proofs against the luney cal.” to enlighten us;
ONE:
pentecost [50 days] equals [is the same as] the feast of weeks [7sabb.s and a day]. In the year of christ’s death, was not the pentecost also the feast of weeks and also 50days from the ressurection, and also 7 sabbaths and a day from the same?
and also [from my other unsatisfactorily answered question];
TWO:
the only sign=jonah=’3 days and 3 nights’ [as opposed to 36 hours using the ‘luney calendar] Note; that 36hr ressurection baloney, the pope started it in order to incorporated Easter into the calendar
So Please also show on your calendar these 4 events;
x’s death 1/14 3p.m. [4th/wk] < also know as midst of week in Dan.
x's burial 1/15 ?7p.m.? [5th/wk]
x's ressurection 1/17or18 "3 full days later" [7th or 1st/wk]
'the girls' finding him gone 1/18 6a.m. [1st/wk]
note: the dates/times above are what I believe but, Please Do show your own dates[and dayofweek] & times, for these four events on you calendar.
Nicklas, I realize this is an aweful lot of work, I still spend 10-30 hours every winter precreating two calendars using usno.navy.mil data for the coming year – one for early-seen barley and one for late-seen barley. The first couple years I tryed, I didn't get it done, the first year I got it done it took over 80 hrs. But it's rewarding. You once said that if anyone could prove you wrong then you would happily adjust your view-point; well untill you create your own calendar, you are just choosing to believe that guy who wrote the 'luney cal.' over me,
ie. believing in a man over the word / one must do to know / faith without works is dead…
you write one also peter, it's good for ya.
mine [for 2015] is at;
https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=n1f275vamtqeuoalkc99gfi0p4%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Havana
and if you start now it'll probably only take you three years, which would still leave seven years before 6000! 🙂
you still have the best radio show on the internet nicklas! I'll wait another year to again throw in one of these spirit'd dissimulations…
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Tom. Where in the scriptures Is it said that the count to fifty is from after the weekly Sabbath day. Most that teach this put ‘from the sabbath day occurring during Unleavened Bread’, in brackets – to lead you on. But upon checking for that, the Bible does not teach that or support that. It is an invention of some person in church leadership.
Do you know that when the first sheaf of first fruits is brought in to the Levitical priest on a particular day, it must be kept till the morrow after the sabbath day (i.e. first day of the week) when the Levitical priest shall wave it. During that time interval, no grain, parched or fresh (including leavened or unleavened) is to be eaten at all.
After the ‘first fruits’ sheaf is waved, grain may then be eaten.
If this interval included any part of the days of Unleavened Bread – and you say the sabbath commencing the Pentecost is within this period of Unleavened Bread – then how are you going to eat Unleavened Bread, as you must on those days, if no grain may be eaten before the first day of the week following that sabbath that begins the count. That could be up to six days commanded to eat no grain at all. Read it in Leviticus 23:14. No grain at all must include Unleavened Bread.
I say Pentecost is a time completely detached from the sabbath occurring during the seven days of Unleavened Bread, from start to finish of the count to fifty. It is purely agriculturally based.
Go fathom it.
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Peter,
This reply is to your comment that ended with ‘go fathom it’. But this comment of yours is at the end of an extrrrremely long sub-thread that goes back 7years to my point about ‘the 53day problem’, which is an argruement against the theory of lunar sabbaths which Nicklas upholds.
And I’m afraid that I just can’t keep it all in my head to make a comprehensible reply to your comment. So;
I’ll just re-iterate,
penecost=feastofweeks=aSunday[1srDayofWeek]=’50days after the sabbath that occurs during the week of unleavened bread’
and not;
the 53 individual days that it takes if you hold that it is a sunday[1stDay of week] AND you hold to the lunar calendar which is expounded in the body of this “what moonth is it?” webpage
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Hi Tom,
You replied to my comment made today 2019. Different dates. I’m East, your’re west I presume.
You said I made a moot point.
I suggest you read it again. I am not trying to say that the 15th of the first month and the 15th of the second Hebrew month are seven day sabbaths, like Nicklas is trying to prove.
On the contrary. I am saying that Nicklas has misconstrued the meaning of Exodus 16:1.
Exodus 16:1 is speaking about two months after a point in time on the fifteenth day of that particular ‘two months later’.
The point in time was the 15th day of the first month. Two months after that point in time, bringing the date along to the 15th day again, but of the third month now
IS NOT
IS NOT
IS NOT
the 15th day of the second Hebrew month, as Nicklas is trying to tell you. He did not read it as two months after the 15th Abb (Babylonian Nisan) which is 15th day of the first month, plus two months ‘after’ or later than that date falling on the same date again therefore. The date Exodus 16:1 brings us two is 15th day of the third Hebrew month.
My point is the first month and the third month are not consecutive months.
Nicklas is mistakenly saying they are consecutive months, being the first month and second month, both with sabbaths on the fifteenth day.
Whatever his conclusion is based on this error, is therefore inconclusive because it is based on a fallacious presumption – a false premise.
I am in no way supporting Nicklas that the fifteenth of two months running consecutively is a sound basis for claiming the 15th of any month being a seventh day sabbath or even lunar sabbath, especially as his conclusion is based on a slip up, causing an error.
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The same math that nicklas shows to prove that the 15th of 1st month and 15th of 2nd month cannot be 7day sabbaths in an eternal 7day sabbath system also applys if 16,1 is pointing at the 15th day of the 3rd month or even the 4th month, rather than the 2nd month. So unfortunately your arguement is still moot.
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Tom. I re-read both your recent comments, to try to get to the bottom of what you see as moot.
I went over the context of Exodus 16:1, and I found it contradicted just about everything you said in your earlier comment. But I know you are gallant enough to want to find out what I found.
The congregation of Israel left Elim and came to the wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the third Hebrew month (exactly two months after they left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month, being Passover).
The date is now set at 15th day of the third Hebrew month. Exod 16:1.
Before this the congregation complained of hunger and thirst, saying Moses and Aaron had brought them there to die. Exod 15:24
The date remains the 15th of the third month. And it is a weekly sabbath day. Knowing the resentment of the people on this sabbath – enter the LORD saying to Moses,
“Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not. On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily.” Exod 16:4-5.
This was still the weekly sabbath on the 15th day of the third Hebrew month. What happened then? Continuing: –
So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel,
“At evening (this evening) you shall know that it was the LORD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your murmurings against the LORD. For what are we (Moses and Aaron) that you murmur against us? “ Exod 16:6-8.
Still the same day. And Moses said,
“When the LORD gives you in the evening flesh to eat and in the morning bread to the full, because the LORD has heard your murmurings which you murmur against him — what are we? Your murmurings are not against us but against the LORD. “
Still the same day. And the LORD said to Moses,
“I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, ‘At twilight (after sunset, just after the weekly sabbath) you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.’ “ Exod 16:11-12.
Just after sunset, now the first day of the week.
In the evening (twilight) quails came up and covered the camp; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp. And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground. When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Exod 16:13-15.
And Moses said to them, (on now the first day of the week, 16th day of the third Hebrew month)
“It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat. This is what the LORD has commanded; ‘ . . . . . .’ “ Exod 16:15. STOPPING HERE.
This was the first of six days repeated, and the seventh day was the seventh day sabbath on which no manna or quail fell, as a double quantity fell on the sixth day to provide for the weekly sabbath ration.
But clearly, the day before the six days of air-dropped food supplies commenced was also a weekly sabbath, and that date was the 15th day of the third month at the wilderness of Sin, two months after the Israelites left Egypt at Passover on the 15th Abib, being the first month of the Hebrew Calendar.
On the sabbath the quail and manna stopped falling was seven days after the sabbath before the quail and manna stated falling. And that latter sabbath was sixty days after Passover 15th Abib when the Israelites left Egypt in a hurry.
There were 15 days from 1st Abib to the 15th Abib, after which two more months passed before they arrived at the wilderness of Sin on the weekly sabbath day 15th of the third month, which was seven days prior to the 22nd day of the third Hebrew month, which was the sabbath that followed the six days in which quail and manna fell.
Allowing 30 days per Hebrew month. The 15th and 22nd of the third Hebrew month, were weekly sabbath days. They were also, in this particular case, the 75th and 82nd day’s of the Hebrew year, that year.
Also these two sabbaths (by subtracting 15 days) were the 60th day and the 67th day after Israel left Egypt at Passover in a hurry.
Painfully, tracking back the days of the year from the start now to the 82nd day of that year.
These days were weekly sabbaths: –
82, 75, 68, 61, 54, 47, 40, 33, 26, 19, 12, 5.
Going forwards now: –
5, 12, 19, 26, 33, 40, 47, 54, 61, 68, 75, 82.
The 15th day of the first three Hebrew months are days 15, 45 and 75.
Of these 15 and 45 do not align with any of the numbers above, and so are not weekly sabbaths, but the number 75 is a weekly sabbath as counted forwards and backwards above.
Proverbs Chapter 2 says to seek truth diligently, and you will find the nuggets of gold buried within the scriptures.
I think you will find that this is not ‘moot’ scripturally, and that it overturns much of what you trumpeted sweepingly in your earlier of two January 2019 comments to me. I am not attempting to prove that the 15th day of Hebrew months are always concurrent with weekly sabbaths. But definitely, sometimes they can synchronize as in the topic engaged by Exodus 16:1. It was not the second month spoken of by Nicklas, which was a slip up. But it was synched for both the 15th and the 22nd days of the third Hebrew month which IS the subject context of Exodus Chapter 16.
.
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In my book, the “second Hebrew month” follows the “first Hebrew Month” , but you keep misquoting saying its the “third Month” – You are reading it as “60 days later to the day,” this is an error.
And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. (Exo 16:1)
I have no more to say about this.
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Peter,
If you can find any scipture that says basicly “and on this day, a sabbath day unto the Lord, the Lord DID [insert anything here except REST]”, then I will allow that your point is not moot.
But for now I do not think the Lord has ever done/worked/spoke on anything with his creation [including even talk to one of his created] on any sabbath day since the beginning and until the end.
On another note: your math here “The 15th day of the first three Hebrew months are days 15, 45 and 75.” I don’t think there has ever been three consecutive lunar cycles each of which are exactly thirty days each, except before the Flood when each and every month was exactly and precisely 30 days each.
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I read above that Nicklas said he is not responsible for the Calendar compilation in this article. So Nicklas did not misconstrue Exodus 16:1 at all. But the calendar, whoever it was compiled by, Misconstrued Exodus 16:1, and that compiled error has misled Nicklas. Apologies to Nicklas for thinking he compiled it.
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I am responsible for the work here. And I did not misconstrue anything. Your understanding of the text is faulty leading to a faulty conclusion. You have enough information here and in the scripture itself to perceive how our understanding may be the correct one. If you cannot entertain the idea that you may be wrong on this point then, in any case there is nothing else I can say here than I have already said.
The purpose of this very article is to lead others away from the bondage and tyranny of the Letter of the Law into the Liberty proclaimed by Christ. If you miss that – you are wasting your time here.
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Tom. Here is an extracted copy of a portion of a comment that I replied to you on 12th January, 2019 at 5:56 AM that has been moderated much later than that. I assume you have read it but must have missed it.
Copy of extract: –
The date remains the 15th of the third month. And it is a weekly sabbath day. Knowing the resentment of the people on this sabbath – enter the LORD saying to Moses,
“Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not. On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily.” Exod 16:4-5.
This was still the weekly sabbath on the 15th day of the third Hebrew month. What happened then?
End of extract.
After that, from that evening in the twilight after sundown was the first day of the week on which quail in the twilight and manna in the morning fell for six days repeating. Twice as much on the sixth day to cover for the next day’s Sabbath, which was the seventh day from the Sabbath day the previous week wherein quail started to fall after sunset in the twilight.
On that sabbath just prior to the quail falling in the evening twilight, the first of six days of quail and manna fall, that introduced the very next sabbath day, seven days later than that earlier sabbath, God spoke the words contained in the extract provided for you to peruse as proof that there is nothing moot about this. God spoke to Moses directly.
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Matthew Henry agrees with my rendering of the text: Exodus 16:1. He says, “The host of Israel, it seems, took along with them out of Egypt, when they came thence on the fifteenth day of the first month, a month’s provisions, which, by the fifteenth day of the second month, was all spent;”
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Matthew Henry agrees with my rendering of the text: Exodus 16:1. He says, “The host of Israel, it seems, took along with them out of Egypt, when they came thence on the fifteenth day of the first month, a month’s provisions, which, by the fifteenth day of the second month, was all spent;”
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Nicklas,
After years of observing a contigual 7 day sabbath cycle, I’m seriously considering evidence supporting the lunar based schedule and I applaud you for your input on the topic. I’m not convinced yet but I still have much more prayer and study to do and am very much enjoying the journey. There is one particular problem with the lunar sabbath issue that I cannot find an answer for and that is Messiah’s crucifixion and resurrection. If the lunar sabbath is correct, it would seem that there could not have possibly had been 3 days and 3 nights between the two events. What’s your take on that?
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if you do a word search on ‘third day’ in the gospels and acts you will find that He was raised on the third day NOT after 3 days and nights.
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I understand that, but how does one get three days and three nights from late in day 6, day 7, to morning of 1st day?
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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At least 10 times the term “on the third day” is used to express when the resurrection would or did happen. Only once is the Mat 12:40 “three days and three nights” construction used. 10 to 1, you cannot get “three days and three nights” complete because the count is inclusive and “three days and three nights” is a poor construction. No one said the KJV was perfect!
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see also – mat 27:63 after three days; mar 8:31 after three day;
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David. Read this in RED LETTERS, the very words of Jesus who staked his very Messiah-ship on them. Matt.12:40 ” . . . . so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Did the substitute entombed Friday sunset, and risen Sunday at Dawn qualify? That being two nights and one day according to Hebrew days and nights, that start at sunset instead of midnight. That ring-in must be disqualified. Otherwise Good Friday and Easter Sunday must be disqualified. Substitute Wednesday sunset to sabbath sunset. That is fitting.
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The High Sabbaths calendar is kept by the moon, yes; the weekly sabbath has always been a continual 7 day count since day 1. Day 4 when the moon was created was not the 1st day, Day 1 was the 1st day. Using the moon for the weekly 7 day count will always land you with more days in a week than 7, here and there. The NT emphasis on “early, while it was yet dark, on the 1st day of the week” more than once shows us how tradition changed Scripture – you are correct, it has nothing to do with names of days we use today, it having to do with the point that days begin at dark, so Sabbath was still observed by necessary inference – and no calendar change has ever changed the count of the days of the week. I looked up the authors of the quotes from the references you used, and neither one’s background does anything to convince me. 7 High Sabbaths a year, Sabbath years, and Jubilees are similar; throw an extra year in to the count here and there and then see what happens. But at any rate, I think my point should be, please let’s don’t get diverted and divided by the lunar sabbath – we both hold strong views. If we are not brother and sister, we wouldn’t debate at all. 🙂
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My unfortunate experience with 7th day Sabbath keepers (SDA) has been that if you don’t keep the Sabbath you are breaking EVERY other commandment and cannot be saved. They were the most legalistic, ungracious people I have been around. My mother-in-law was not even sure she was saved–she hoped that she was. They thought I was blasphemous and arrogant to say that I knew I was saved and, in fact, was already “seated in heavenly places” with Jesus my Savior and Lord. I see there is a huge battle “out there” between 7th day and Lunar Sabbath Keepers and I find that, again, very unfortunate. I just read The Name on this website and have a whole NEW “investigation” of Scriptures (Berean, yes) concerning The Name of our Wonderful……. (I’m afraid to say any name that I have used for 33 years now). I TRULY wish we were all ONE BODY without all these different points of view!
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Be at peace sister, I don’t intend to lay a burden on anyone. This is only about biblical studies. I am not trying to be the Holy Spirit. Our Heavenly Father judges the thoughts and intents of our hearts. He is not so concerned with whether we pronounce His name one way or another so much as He is with our willingness to please Him and live by faith in His only Son. Messiah’s favorite name for the Father was just that, Father! Our different views are a test, will we love the brethren or chose to hate simply because they do not agree or understand the same way we do?
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I have come across the same attitude mentioned by Shanna, of either condemnation or condescension, when questioning some Lunar Sabbath keepers. I am aware that the sabbath in a seven day cycle, falls on modern days named Friday and Saturday after pagan deities, I do not worship those deities. I love and worship the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things, that is YHWH which I think may be pronounced Yahoweh or Yahovah I still call Him God sometimes and I am convinced he knows the thoughts and intents of my heart, so I pray I do no dishonor to him, in my reply or otherwise.
Since the lunar calendar cannot be equally divided by seven earth rotations or solar days, there are lots of interesting methods to work around,or reconcile a seven day cycle with a lunar cycle (averaging 29.53059 days).
Three passages of scripture came to mind about the the lunar sabbath, which when presented to the lunar sabbath keeping folks, are never (or have not yet been), answered; in respect to each other and the Lunar Sabbath:
1: Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
2. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. and:
3.Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
The phases of the moon from one new moon to the next are variable lengths of time, and are determined by the degree of light and shadow as the moon (lessor,night light), as it orbits the eart the earth. So far as I can tell from scripture we are to keep sabbath according to a regular seven day cycle.
The Lunar sabbath folks propose that not regarding lunar cycles for sabbath rest, is equivalent to willful disobedience to the fourth commandment. Pretty serious, if it is so, and they have lots of convincing sounding arguments, and calculations, the feast days for example, are determined in their respective seasons by the position of the moon……
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Well said. Other things that bother me are the views of historians, mathematicians, scientists, astronomers – they all agree. “I have always hesitated to suggest breaking the continuity of the week, which without a doubt is the most ancient scientific institution bequeathed to us by antiquity” (Edouard Baillaud, “The Report,” p. 52. [Baillaud was Director of the Paris Observatory.]). “The week is a period of seven days…It has been employed from time immemorial in almost all Eastern countries” (The Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 4, p. 988, article, “Calendar”). In 364 the Council of Laodicea outlawed “Judaizing” by keeping 7th day Sabbath, following the lead of Constantine (whose Sun-day law was given in the year 321). Since then, the Waldenses were persecuted for keeping 7th day sabbath, as well as many others. I don’t know where this doctrine originated from, but it has a LOT of explaining to do. I think division and diversion is it’s intention, but I refuse to be divided with folks over it – normally at this point they become vehement, illogical, and unreasonable though, and won’t simply agree to disagree. So I will not go there anymore, and I do not like this new doctrine.
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If you scroll to the top of the page you will find after my name-Biblical Studies. That is my only object here. I have friends that keep Saturday, Sunday and the moon regulated sabbath. Let them all keep it to YHWH with no judgement or condemnation from me. I have found what I have found in the scripture and if and when I find that all Sabbaths (7th days), high or otherwise are not regulated by the moon I will share that here as well. Scripture and verse, that’s all I’m concerned with. Peace be with you all.
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What I do not understand then is all of the evidence in the New Testament that they kept Sabbath on Saturdays. When the woman came to His tomb early in the morning on the first day of the week while it was still dark – they know by computers that he died on a Wednesday and rose on a Saturday late afternoon. This being the case, all those other “first day of the week” verses in the New Testament which pointed to Friday evening to Saturday evening for us when we first began to come out of Catholicism deserve attention as well. At the very least, keep your head on because people have condemned me to hell because I didn’t see lunar sabbath. By this page I can begin to see where they are coming from, finally. Too many things are not satisfied by this though, still for me. The spirit of a few lunar sabbath keepers I’ve met thus far has not helped, and no offense Nicklas, that’s not likely to be true in your case.
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The Hebrews did not keep Roman day names such as Wednesday and Saturday-and they are nowhere mentioned in the New Testament. The “first day of the week” is not the Roman Monday, it is the day following the sabbath and more specifically the 9th day of the first Hebrew moonth. They kept the calendar in the first moonth with passover as I have constructed it here. Even now the Jews still keep passover by this calendar, though they no longer keep the Sabbath by it. They have chosen to use the Popes Gregorian Calendar instead. If it were up to me, I’d chose Saturday too, it would be much more convenient to be in synch with the rest of the world. But my job here is to rightly divide the Word…
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Sorry if my comment seemed judgmental, it wasn’t meant to be, just a commentary regarding Lunar Sabbath in light of: Gen. 1:16, 1 Th. 5:5 , James 1:17. We are on the same page regarding Romans 14:5.
Scott
P.S. May we correspond, by regular e-mail ?
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All commentary welcome. If it is regarding any of my articles or studies just place them on the most appropriate page. If you have something of a more personal nature you are welcome to email me: far.live@yahoo.com is most checked.
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